06 July, 2010

Haven't we all been 'here' at least once in our life?

29 comments:

  1. I can relate to this alright! Part 1
    I am a Mother of a gay adult son. My gut feeling tells me my parish priest is GAY. That is a strong statement to make but I do have my reasons. First, being gay is not breaking the law in this land (Canada). In my opinion a priest can carry out his duties very well even if he is gay & celibate. He knows what the Catholic Church says about homosexuality in the Catechism. It is not my business if the priest is gay. But when his insecurities about being gay start to affect my spiritual life, I do have a problem.

    Over a period of time this priest showed different signs to me. It was not something I caught on over night. It started out simply by me asking for prayers for my gay son, family & parents with gay children, then in the confessional he told me (he even worked at Chancery office once) that there is NO such thing as GAY priests in our Diocese. I believed him. Then things started to unraveled. My son did not realize the information he shared with me once would cause such a problem in my spiritual life.

    I decided to do a Lenten exercise & share some info about my shortcomings & learning about mercy, love & compassion. The BIG mistake I made was giving this priest the letter. I thought the Holy Spirit was showing me that there is such a thing as GAY priests & God loves them. I know I was very naive of me & stupid!
    Part 2 to follow

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  2. Part 2
    All of the sudden I am getting these e-mails from this priest. He said it is sad when a priest lives a double life. It was my duty as a Catholic to reveal to him the name of this priest from another Church; he would know how to deal with it. I got scared & prayed hard. Then another e-mail followed, if I did not tell him about this priest I was a hindrance to the progression of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Then he added he adhered to the teachings of Holy Roman Catholic Church. Then he repeated this over again. I replied to his letter by saying 'Father, I believe you when you said you adhere to the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.' I was really getting upset. Fr. Tim, I really thought he was going to give himself a heart attack!

    My son happened to call me & I told him everything that was happening. He thought I out a priest. I did not out a priest. After thinking & praying my answer was NO. I would not reveal the name of the priest. But if it was a pedophile priest I would go to the police not to him. I was getting angry & was in tears. My son told me to shred everything this priest sent me. That I was getting myself in a situation that was way over my head. I didn't realize about the politics of the situation. He told me the TWO priests he spoke of were meant to be kept between the two of us. I forgot, one does not out a gay person unless that person chooses too. It is just too dangerous. A gay person can do harm to himself even to the point of taking his own life. I do not want the guilt of a suicide gay priest on my conscience. I did not think what this revelation of mine would have done to my son's reputation. My son calls me back to see how I was doing & he told me not to be too hard on myself. He knew I did not do this on purpose. I was too honest & that honesty could also be used against me. I was a confuse Mom that was trying to make sense about why this priest lied to me or deceived me in the confessional about saying there was no gay priests in our area.
    Part 3 to follow

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  3. Part 3 (the end)

    I finally told my parish priest to please forget about that letter of mine, it was a mistake. It was causing a lot of trouble, I just wanted to forget about it & I was sincerely sorry to have upset him. I also told him it would be wise to take me off his e-mail list... Fr. Tim, it was a nightmare! I learned my lesson, just stay off the subject of homosexuality & gay priests with this parish priest.

    This happened over a year & a half ago or so. We do see each other of course at church & church functions & it is just like nothing ever happened. Other things have happened nothing criminal but in my heart everything has changed. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is finish for me for now. I tell my sins straight to God. I do a spiritual communion & go up & receive a Blessing. Maybe one day I will return to the Sacrament of Reconciliation & the Eucharist but for now this is all I can manage with my small, humble, & contrite heart.

    My parish priest is gay because he protested a little too much & more importantly I see so much of my gay son in him.
    Lord Have Mercy on me and on us all!
    Lina

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  4. OY! LOL!

    Everything okay with you, Tim?

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  5. Lina: Be at peace. You will return to the full practice of the faith in time. Right now. the perceived hypocrisy of your priest stands as an obstacle. Just remember: priests come and priests go! When yours is moved, you will have an opportunity to reset your relationship with the Church. In the mean time, keep praying and doing what you can to stay connected with God and you'll be fine.

    Fr. Tim

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  6. Lady Janus: I'm fine. Thanks for asking!

    Fr. Tim

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  7. Fr. Tim Moyle said:
    "Lina: Be at peace. You will return to the full practice of the faith in time. Right now. the perceived hypocrisy of your priest stands as an obstacle. Just remember: priests come and priests go! When yours is moved, you will have an opportunity to reset your relationship with the Church. In the mean time, keep praying and doing what you can to stay connected with God and you'll be fine."

    Fr. Tim, when there are rumors or speculations like a priest might be gay or a priest is a pedophile/molester, it is somewhat easy to brush it off or just ignore it. There is a big difference when those speculations & rumors become a reality in my (our) own little world.

    At my last confession even though I was not given an absolution, in my heart I knew I was not really sorry about being angry because nothing changed within me not even for 5 minutes. The confessional is not a counseling booth like our Pontiff said. It’s better for me to impose a self exile from the Sacrament of Reconciliation & the Eucharist until I deal with those destructive emotions that I have.

    At one time, it was not that difficult for me to be able to turn negatives into positives. Instead of feeling sorry for myself, I was able to find ways to give thanks, like being able to see, being grateful for my family etc… Now, I seemed to have loss my way towards that goal. My intentions are good but I am not getting the proper results.

    I'm lucky if pray one ‘Our Father’ in a day. I talk to Jesus & Mother Mary like I would be talking to you Fr. Tim.

    I do hope God has a sense of humor?
    Once my son said:’ what are you doing Mom, are you trying to drive that poor priest crazy?
    Later that day I prayed: ‘Lord, these males, straight or gay, they do like to stick together. What chance do I have as a female? Lord, are you listening & taking notes on this? (Smiling)

    It is like I am in this garden & it is call...'Gethsemane’ & I cannot fine my way out. But, the good news is that I am still able to roam around. Of course, I will be fine because I haven't given up on hope or on life.

    Thanks....Fr. Tim!
    Lina

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  8. Fr. Tim,
    Here's my last post, I'm not sure if I will be back?

    As for waiting for another priest to replace this one & having him replaced (very good chance) by another gay priest because there are not that many priests to choose from this Diocese as it is! Father, I am not waiting that long. I remember (the Little Flower) St.Therese of Lisieux said. 'Pray for ALL priests, especially the ones that their souls are not as crystal clear as they should be.’

    I do not care if my parish priest is gay. I love him just the way he is. He’s a good soul. That is what my heart is very happy to say. I think I was afraid for this priest safety. My gay son's safety is a concern for me too. Hate Crimes are up in Canada. Crimes against gays are #1 on the list. Many gays do not even report certain crimes against them.

    Hearing statements like: These queers should be all line up & shot! & so, that young gay guy killed himself...good riddance! One less fag!

    My son told me that he was gay. He was sobbing over the telephone. I couldn't even get to hug him; he was a hundred miles away from home. I wanted to hug him so badly! I tried to calm him down by saying to him. Would it help you if I told you I kind of knew but I wasn't too sure? There was a long pause, I thought he was gone but he was still there. We spoke for some time, he was sorry to break the news this way over the phone. He knew this news was a lot for me to absorb, it was only natural it would take some time for me to take it all in. After all, Mom is so religious & so Roman Catholic. I said loved him. Things will be o.k.

    The rest of the evening is a blur, but I do remember through my tears saying in prayer...Oh my God, somebody is going to killed my son with a baseball bat just because he is gay! It was his safety & I did not know how I could protect him.

    In time, I needed to learn to let my son go & trust God in protecting him.

    Have a great night Father Tim!

    Lina

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  9. I have to confess I just don't understand why people put so much trust in the RC church. It is a man-made institution, not founded on Peter as they claim. Archeologists have studied whether Peter was ever in Rome and have been unable to find any evidence. The Bible says nothing about him having been in Rome although the RCC claims he spent 25 years in Rome. The New Testament clearly says nothing about Peter having been in Rome, nothing about Peter being recognized as a Pope or Peter claiming the authority of a Pope or head apostle. It's just not there. Peter was an apostle mainly to the Jews and Paul was an apostle to the gentiles. So Peter spent his time in other places, not Rome. When Paul went to Rome, and wrote to the church in Rome (Paul's epistle to the Romans) he said nothing about Peter (because Peter wasn't in Rome). Peter never came to see Paul in prison in Rome. The reason is simple. Peter was not in Rome. There are numerous other points which demonstrate Peter was not a pope in Rome. This is not Protestant propaganda; it is New Testament facts.

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  10. Wayne, all religions are man-made. All of them. Yours. Mine. Everyone's.

    The great thing about freedom of religion is that you're allowed to choose which one you follow. Or not. But why do you feel the need to run down what someone else follows?

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  11. Lady Janus,

    As I said, the Bible commands christians to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. (Jude vs3) "Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye." Acts ch4 vs19

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  12. Wayne:

    The bible also says we are to judge not lest we be judged.

    Yet, you continue to come up with these criticisms of the Holy Catholic Church based on some bias that you have.

    The Bible is a wonderful inerrant book of the word of God, but it is not the complete story of Jesus and the Church He created. How could it be? The Church has survived long after the books were written, and 1,600 years since the biblial Canon was established.

    Presumably in Williams Lake they have discovered automobiles, and I know you are familiar with boats and motors. They, too are not biblical. How do you explain your use of such tools?

    Was Peter ever in Rome? The early Christians wrote that he was, and even the Bible says he was here "The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark" (I Peter 5:13).

    I know. The Bible says "Babylon". But, curiously, Babylon did not exist at the time, having been destroyed, so Peter could not have written from there. Babylon to the early Christians was a code word for Rome.

    St. Peter's tomb is beneath St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Apparently, it contains his remains. At least that is what the Church officially proclaims, and believes.

    It seems that everyone but you on the planet that has an interest in the facts knows that Peter ministered from Rome in his later years. (Unless of course, somebody just made that up and has tricked the Church for nearly 2,000 years.)

    Brother, you express opinions coming from bigots as facts, regardless of whether or not there is controverting evidence. You basically are undermining the validity of the faith of hundreds of millions of people on the planet, who remain faithful to the Church that Christ founded. It gets tiresome.

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  13. MBrandon,

    "The bible also says we are to judge not lest we be judged."

    Michael, people who have never looked at a Bible have used that verse to try to silence critics of everything. It is one of most misused verses in the Bible, so I am not suprised you would try to use it.

    The truth is Jesus commanded his followers to use righteous judgment. The often quoted verse you are referring to in Matthew ch7 vs1 is a command to not judge rashly, uncharitably, unmercifully, nor with a spirit of revenge, nor judge the heart of others (because only God knows the heart), nor intentions, etc. which go beyond what christians are called to do.

    However, the Lord Jesus commanded "judge righeous judgment" John 7 vs24. Jesus said to a man "thou hast rightly judged" Luke 7:43 To others Jesus said "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" Luke 12:57

    The apostle Paul said "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" 1 Corinthians 2:15

    Therefore it is clear duty of christians to judge certain things. In this case I am judging what I believe are false teachings of Rome. The Bible sheds a light on false teachings and as christians we are commanded to expose them. Without God's Word, you are left with the dogmas and claims of men.

    Judging is part of life which everyone, not just christians, engage in. But christians are especially commanded to judge false teachers and false doctrine. Jesus said "Beware of false prophets!" Matthew 7:15. How could we beware of false prophets and false doctrine if we could not judge?

    "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20 Jesus said "Ye shall know them by their fruits" Matthew 7:16. In judging the "fruits", we must judge by God's Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning.

    The apostle Paul also said "Now I beseech you brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." Romans 16: 17,18. If it were not right to judge as you say, this apostolic command could not be followed.

    You say "The Bible is a wonderful inerrant book of the word of God, but it is not the complete story of Jesus and the Church He created. How could it be? The Church has survived long after the books were written, and 1,600 years since the biblial Canon was established."

    I don't follow your reasoning here Michael. Of course the Bible is the complete revelation of Jesus. If you say there is revelation from God apart from the Bible, are you not adding to what God has revealed in his written Word? Why then does it warn against adding or taking anything away from God's Word in Revelation chapter 22, the last few verses in the Bible? How can you justify adding to subtracting from God's revelation in view of the warning against it in Revelation chap22?

    Before you go another step Michael, you need to explain what it means not to add or subtract from God's revelation if you still believe there are people who can give "added light" or new revelations from God apart from what is already revealed in the Bible. I am referring to Popes and your Majesterium who claim to have the authority to give new revelations on a level of Scripture or claim these are revelations from God. How can that be if it is forbidden in the Bible itself? How can "tradition" be accepted as legitimate in light of these verses in Revelation ch22?

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  14. Michael,

    "Was Peter ever in Rome? The early Christians wrote that he was, and even the Bible says he was here "The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark" (I Peter 5:13)"

    The reference to Babylon in 1 Peter 5:13 is likely not referring to Rome, but rather an actual place where Peter ministered to the dispersed Jews. Peter's ministry was primarily to the Jews while Paul's ministry was to the gentiles. So Peter probably travelled to an actual place called Babylon where there were Jews in great numbers. (reference the Jewish historian Josephus in his book "Antiguities, Book XV, Ch. II, 2).

    There is no evidence whatsoever in the New Testament or historically that Peter ever was in Rome. There is mention in the first twelve chapters of Acts that Peter was in Syria and Palestine. If he had gone to Rome, surely it would have been mentioned. Yet the RCC claims Peter's pontificate was from 42 A.D. to 67 A.D., a period of 25 years. This is based purely on claimed "tradition", which was really only a legend of the Roman church. There is no evidence given by early church writers prior to 300 A.D. that Peter was in Rome. Exhaustive research has been made by archaelogists down through the centuries to find some inscription in the Catacombs and other ruins of ancient places in Rome to indicate that Peter had at least visited Rome. But the only thing found were some bones of uncertain origin. Archeologists have spent decades of their lives trying to find evidence to substantiate the papal claim that Peter had been in Rome and have been unable to find anything.

    If you want to believe this fable, it is your choice. But just remember it is only an unsubstantiated claim and the N.T. evidence is against it. The whole claim of the papacy as being the successors of an alleged "Pope Peter" cannot be proven. The New Testament gives clear evidence to the contrary.

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  15. Dear Lina:

    You shared a part of your journey of life with us here, which must have been difficult for you to do. Clearly you are distraught and grieving about your son, and this has also morphed into worry about other things that you see or think you see going on.

    Instead of offering you support and help, two of us acted like the priest and Levite in the story of the Good Samaritan from the Gospel of yesterday's Mass. We walked down the other side of the road, carrying on our peeing contest about scripture, and who is right, ignoring your cry for help.

    Please forgive me for ignoring you and not responding to you and your needs.

    My Dear Wife and I have 6 children among us, 3 each, and one of the five daughters is gay. She is a wonderful young woman, who we love dearly.

    When she told us she was gay, it was a most difficult few days, particularly for My Dear Wife, as she came to grips with what this meant for us and for her, for all the hopes and dreams that we have for her, and she has for herself. There were many tears shed over this. It is after all serious business.

    We do not know why our daughter is gay, and it surely is not our choice for her for her life, but we love her none the less. We also love her partner and consider her as a daughter as well. We are doing the best that we know how to love them as God's children, and not to judge them, but to give them the best example we can in our flawed lives, to see an example of committed marital love in our relationship with each other, and in our commitment to love her and her siblings and step siblings where they are each at in their lives.

    There are real dangers in the world for openly gay people, it is true. However, the dangers for them are far less than the dangers that exist for you and I as committed Christians in our society. Still in the midst of all these dangers we have the authority of God to take captive our thoughts, so that we can operate in His grace, not the imaginings of our own minds.

    Love your son and pray for his protection as his loving earthly mother.

    Love your priest and pray for his protection as well.

    You are in my prayers today.

    God Bless You
    Michael

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  16. Here is what I have had to say further to my comment to Lina over at my own blog.

    http://freethroughtruth.blogspot.com/2010/07/good-samaritan-not-me-sadly.html

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  17. Lina: I can only add my voice to that of Michael and offer you the same advice. Your son is blessed to have you as a mother for you understand well the primacy of love over judgment - a virtue every mother must cultivate within her heart.

    You have also shown great kindness to your priest, who may well be gay but has not comfortably come to peace with himself yet. This in no way detracts from the grace and peace that he can offer in his ministry. If he can learn to accept who he is before God, a loved being created in God's image and likeness called to service faithfully and piously as a celibate priest, he will find the grace he needs to live and minister effectively and with peace of soul.

    The path to successfully live one's vocation as a priest requires that we stand naked before God and understand that we are good. To use that old line, 'God doesn't make junk'. We can despoil and sully ourselves through sin and human frailty, but it is very difficult to destroy this essential definition of our nature as man does not have the capacity to ultimately thwart the plan of God.

    Your unwillingness to condemn your pastor is proof that you understand this truth and it speaks very well to your standing as a Catholic.

    I too pray today for your peace and happiness in your faith in God and love of those whom he has brought into your life.

    God bless,

    Fr. Tim

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  18. Anonymous12 July, 2010

    Michael writes:

    "There are real dangers in the world for openly gay people, it is true. However, the dangers for them are far less than the dangers that exist for you and I as committed Christians in our society."

    I do not understand. Your words imply that committed Christians, and gay people, are two separate classes of beings. You imply that the two do not overlap.

    All data I have seen indicates that crimes against LGBT citizens are rising faster than for any other group, and that these crimes are more violent. You can link here:

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Hate+attacks+against+gays+spike+2008+StatsCan/3153857/story.html

    What I also find interesting is that fundamentalist religions (of all creeds and colours) are usually anti-gay and help to legitimize anti-gay violence. Simulatneously, fundamentalist Christians in the US and Canada have been a powerful lobby to prevent equal recognition and protection under the law for LGBT folks. I humbly suggest that some of the 'dangers in the world' that LGBT people face come disproportionately from this contingent.

    And now - despite all evidence to the contrary - Michael makes the claim that it is indeed 'committed Christians' who face the greatest dangers of all!

    Care to round out your astounding claim and tell us how you square this circle?

    Cheers...Martin

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  19. MBrandon,
    Mike thank you for sharing with me your situation. You & your wife know what it is to have a gay child. Whatever feelings & thoughts you & your wife experienced I probably when through the same thing. I did ponder on all what you said.
    I always followed to the best of my ability to do the right thing according to my Catholic faith. Even though other Catholics took the Catholic Church teaching's with a grain of salt. I truly believe everything the Catechism said was the whole truth. I may have not liked certain things but I would try to do the right thing to follow it.

    Mike is just pray for me.

    Thanks Again,

    Lina

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  20. Hey Martin! Great to hear from you! I hope you're enjoying this incredible summer weather.

    Tim

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  21. Mbrandon,

    Jesus is the only saviour as the Bible teaches. Trusting in good works, the mass, the Eucharist, baptism, purgatory, Mary, etc. will not save a person, and these things will not bring true peace to the soul. Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me. (gospel of John). My prayer is that God will one day reveal this to you by his grace and you will put your trust in the finished work of Christ. I will pray that you look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

    Only Jesus can save a soul. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make interecession for them." Hebrews ch7 vs 25

    My prayer will also include Lina who is going through difficult times with her priest and her son. There is one in heaven, who will hear our prayers and supplications, if we accept Him as our only Saviour and Lord.

    I too have heavy burdens with my children and grandchildren and a great grandchild. Life is not easy. All I can say is Jesus has promised in His Word he will never leave me nor forsake me. He has promised to take these heavy burdens off of our shoulders in Matthew ch11 vs 28-30.

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  22. Lina:

    A well known Catholic mystic you probably have heard of, Julian of Norwich said something 800 years ago that resonates with me, particularly when my faith in Our Saviour is challenged by the things of life that are sent to try us.

    She said: "All will be well. All will be well. All manner of things will be well."

    We have no way of grasping how much Our Dear Lord really loves our children, and how He wants to and does reach out to them in their need, and their pain.

    We are so blessed in the Catholic Church that we can receive the Body and Blood of Our Precious Lord at any time that we choose, for He is real food for our souls.

    Tomorrow morning I will gather once again in frotn of the tabernacle at our Parish of St. Georges here in London Ontario, with my prayer partners and brothers in Christ, and I will bring your intentions and those of your beloved son to our morning prayer intentions.

    I will do this not because you can't and not because you don't, but because the Body is meant to be together, to be one, and so we will join with you in your sorrow.

    God Bless You and your son, and your parish priest as well.

    Michael

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  23. Wayne:

    My prayer for you is a little different than yours for me.

    Lord, make us one, as you and the Father are one.

    As for your family, I will bring your heavy burdens with your children, grandchildren, and great grandchild to my prayer with my brothers in the morning.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, I trust in your love for Wayne, his children, grandchildren and great grandchild.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, fill us with your blood.

    God Bless You

    Michael

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  24. Martin:

    Good comment. Good to see you back.

    To the contrary, I am well aware that gays and Christians overlap, that there are many Christians who are gay. I am also aware that for many proclaimed Christians, particularly fundamentalist Christians, that the fact of "gayness" is by itself considered sinful, and a sign that God's favour does not rest on the gay person. The emergence of gay people who live out their sexuality in ways that honour God is a sign to the Church of their love of God.

    That many gays, not unlike us heterosexuals, by the way, struggle to live their sexuality in accordance with Catholic teaching, for example, does not make them any less human than any one else, nor does it make God love them any less.

    My comment was partly in the context of Lina's concerns for her son and others. Also, my context was global, not particularly local. It is true that there are many serious instances of discrimination against gays, some that result in physical violence. There are also things that are called discrimination that are merely differences of opinion, and in a climate as we have in North America, college professors can be terminated for presenting the Catholic teaching on homosexual sexual practices, even if the course is about Catholicism. This is becoming every bit as likely in North America as discrimination against gays.

    But, in 2009 alone, 31 Catholic missionary priests were murdered for their faith throughout the world, and at least 6 other nuns and Catholic workers.

    This is also in the midst of persecution of the Catholic Church in North America by the liberal left for not supporting the murder of pre-born infants. It is compounded by fellow Christians who should be their best friends, like fundamentalist Christians with their distorted opinions of the Catholic Church.

    If I wanted to be on safe ground in the coming years, it would be easier to be Gay and not Christian, than Christian, particularly Catholic and heterosexual. But, I pray that I will never again abandon the faith I have in My Lord Jesus Christ.

    Michael

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  25. Martin: May I make a suggestion? Go to the library and read the final chapter of Neuhaus' 'American Babylon'. He offers an analysis that MAY answer some of the questions you posed to me in previous discussions. At the least, the last chapter artfully pulls together the various threads of his theological understanding in a cogent and compact form. I sincerely believe that it may offer a path to peaceful and successful cooperation between Christians and others.

    I would be interested in your thoughts. It may make good fodder for a summer's afternoon spent in easy contemplation of life's mysteries.

    Tim

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  26. Anonymous13 July, 2010

    Michael writes:

    "...in a climate as we have in North America, college professors can be terminated for presenting the Catholic teaching on homosexual sexual practices..."

    So...a professor at a publicly funded college(presumably Dr. Kenneth Howell in Illinois), whose contract as an adjunct professor was not renewed, is somehow analgous to physical violence against LGBT people?

    "Also, my context was global, not particularly local."

    So...is this an implicit acknowledgement that committted Christians in OUR society do not suffer greater dangers than LGBT folks? Apparently it is, because you then go on to cite overseas violence against clergy in suppport of your point. But then I am not sure because you go on to say...

    "This is also in the midst of persecution of the Catholic Church in North America by the liberal left for not supporting the murder of pre-born infants."

    So...pre-born infants (not fetuses of course) are equivalent to 'committed Christians in our society'? Seems to me this example, at best, only demonstrates that fetuses are facing danger and not committed Christians. Or are we to now understand that any theological position that is opposed in public policy by anyone, is somehow equivalent to the real dangers of physical violence faced by LGBT people? I utterly fail to see the equivalency.

    "...it would be easier to be Gay and not Christian, than Christian, particularly Catholic and heterosexual."

    So...being a heterosexual male, who belongs to a worldwide organization with enormous political power, wealth, and privilege in North America, somehow makes you the biggest victim because some folks disagree with the impostion of your theology in public policy?

    Michael, I perfectly understood that the context of your original comment was in response to Lina's legitimate concern for the physical safety of her son. What I find baffling is that you appear to marginalize Lina's concern by making the astounding claim that the very group of folks (committed Christians, who have a significant role in making the lives of LGBT folks unsafe) are somehow more deserving of our sympathies than the LGBT people that face real violence every single day.

    If that is what you are saying, then you and I are in parallel universes that do not necessarily intersect.

    Cheers...Martin

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  27. Yes Michael, I heard about 'Julian of Norwich' but not that quote about what
    she said: "All will be well. All will be well. All manner of things will be well."

    Michael, you stand by what you believe & I respect you for that. You have this gift of
    expressing yourself in a way & still you come across somewhat humble.

    I believe you when you said: “I will gather once again in front of the tabernacle at our Parish of St. Georges here in London Ontario, with my prayer partners and brothers in Christ, and I will bring your intentions and those of your beloved son to our morning prayer intentions.”

    Thank-You!
    Lina

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  28. Martin:

    A 4,000 character limit to communication hampers the ability to communicate effectively. As well, face to face is superior where a dialogue can occur on a point by point basis.

    I am not sure that we are in parallel universes, more likely inhabiting the same one, and looking at different facets of the same diamond.

    Having read your comments over the months and responding periodically, I am aware that you like to play fun word games, twisting things around because you have the mental acuity to do so.

    But, here are some things to ponder. In Canada in 2008 there were approximately 165 hate related incidents reported on LGBT's (who knows how many were not reported?). Of those 70 werw actual assaults, though subjecting someone to emotional abuse is significant abuse.

    Similarly there were in the same year 165 incidents of hatred directed towards Jews in our country, but I didn't hear you jump up to defend them (me either at the moment).

    If the LGBT population of Canada was 5%, that would be 1.65 million people. 69 assaults (.004% of the LGBT population) is not an epidemic, and so Lina was concerned for her son's safety in a circumstance where he has a 1 in 25,000 chance of being assaulted. Should she worry about his safety? Probably not. As a loving mother should she pray for his safety. Definitely yes.

    Of far greater concern is the statistics for suicide and homicide amongst LGBT folks.

    By the way, the majority of the assaults in hate crime are perpetrated by young males between 12-22. By and large that is not a significant Christian age group. Tying assaults on gays to Christians is a stretch, Martin.

    The assault on Christianity is far more subtle, at least in North America. It starts in Canada, with Human Rights Commissions, who use a matrix of rights to deny free speech to those who disagree with those higher on the matrix. It is not a Christian friendly world that we live in, but you know that.

    Just some thoughts.

    Michael

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  29. Anonymous14 July, 2010

    Michael,

    I will walk past comments such as "...you like to play fun word games, twisting things around..." becasue these comments are beneath you, and quite frankly, entirely beside the point.

    Your original claim was that committed Christians face greater dangers than LGBT folks. I challenged that statement and you have evaded and obfuscated. No words games involved, or twisting things around on my part.

    All you can offer in defence of your assertion is some vague hand waving about the subtle assault 'committed Christians' face in North America. Fine. Christians are victims because society sometimes resists their attempts to have Christian theology inserted into public policy.

    As for your mathematical interlude on the significance of hate crimes against LGBT folks, I can only say that it is dishonest and silly. Using your same logic, I could claim that there were only 269 hate crimes against religious folks, out of a population of religious people of 17.5 million(say 1/2 of the population of Cda.) therefore, only 0.000015371% of religious folks were affected - and this is nothing to be concerend about.

    Hate Crimes are only a barometer of a problem. They do not represent all crimes against a class of individuals, but only the most extreme. Hate Crimes are significant because they go beyond the actual victims, and target the community that these individuals belong to. We should all be concerned about how ALL classes of identifiable groups (including committed Christians) are being treated. In relative terms, LGBT folks fare worse than most.

    Here is the actual Statistics Canada link: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/100614/dq100614b-eng.htm

    For those unwilling to read the report, here is the money quote:

    "Hate crimes motivated by sexual orientation were the most violent in nature. In 2008, 75% of those motivated by sexual orientation were violent compared with 38% of racially-motivated incidents and 25% of religiously-motivated incidents.

    Among violent incidents motivated by sexual orientation, 85% of the victims were male."

    I do not suggest for a moment that it is "committed Christians" who are picking up the actual baseball bats and finding a faggot to beat up on the streets. What I am suggesting is that the anti-gay animus of SOME committed Christians creates an atmosphere in our society where young men feel perfectly entitled to fag bash. I am not surprised that many Christians do not want to take ownership for their culpability in the matter.

    Cheers...Martin

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