25 August, 2010

When the Tribunal of the World Condemns the Church for Heresy

Archbishop Charles Chaput (Denver)
IF the day should ever come that I would leave my beloved Ottawa Valley Diocese of Pembroke, and were to leave the country, the Dioceses headed by the Archbishops mentioned in this story would be my destination. These men are orienting their diocese in the right direction, choosing to engage the argument in defense of faith in the Public Square. It would be an honor to harness myself to the team that is being guided with such wisdom. In Canada men like Archbishops Collins (Toronto) and Smith (Edmonton) and Bishop Henry (Calgary) are also working towards the same goal. They too are a blessing for the Church in North America.

With the elevation of Cardinal Ouellet to the Congregation of Bishops in Rome, and with the imminent replacement of over 50% of the Bishops in Quebec over the next five years (as they reach 75 years of age), the chances for other like minded Bishops throughout the province are future is pregnant with hope for better times in both French and English Canada.

This article by Sandro Magister in which he comments primarily on Archbishop Charles Chaput (Denver) profiles one such Bishop who embodies the best of this pastoral approach. It is well worth the time to read!

Fr. Tim 

When the Tribunal of the World Condemns the Church for Heresy

21 comments:

  1. After reading this intense article, 'When the Tribunal of the World Condemns the Church for Heresy.'

    In my opinion it is pure Catholicism at it's best.

    Now this is something that gets my attention, this lady talks about females who are tired of being treated as second-class citizens by the Irish Church and the Vatican.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/womens-boycott-a-wakeup-call-for-church-2302951.html

    Jennifer Sleeman, an 80-year-old woman, she's from Clonakilty in Cork. Whose son is a monk, told the Irish Times that she is calling on the women of Ireland to “join your sisters on Sunday, September 26. On that one day boycott Mass.

    Some of her comments.

    "One thinks also of the grief and trauma inflicted in the past on thousands of women, mothers whose babies were refused the dignity of a church-approved burial because they hadn't been baptized. Their innocent souls, the church had people believing for centuries, were lost in limbo and could never see the light of God.

    The bones of many of those "limbo babies" lie under stones or in unmarked graves all over Ireland, thanks to that cruel teaching that the church, thankfully, has ditched.

    The Vatican "decommissioned" limbo only after many years of pleading and petitioning from groups around the world."


    "The sexual abuse scandals "horrified me. I find I belong to an organization that seems caught in a time warp, run by old celibate men divorced from the realities of life, with a lonely priesthood struggling with the burden of celibacy where rules and regulations have more weight than the original message of community and love"."
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Lina

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  2. "The sexual abuse scandals "horrified me. I find I belong to an organization that seems caught in a time warp, run by old celibate men divorced from the realities of life, with a lonely priesthood struggling with the burden of celibacy where rules and regulations have more weight than the original message of community and love"."

    Lina, you can have all of these "horrors" addressed instantly by joining any number of other denomination where community and love abound. If you don't like whats on the menu try another restaurant. It always baffles me why people endure the horrors of catholicism for no good reason whatsoever. Nobody has you chained to the pew.

    Cheers
    Paul

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  3. Anonymous Paul,

    Why are you so defensive? Are you afraid the females in the Roman Catholic Church have a valid point about being treated as second-class citizens by the Irish Church, Canadian Church etc...and the Vatican?

    No, I am not leaving. I'm working within the Church to keep an eye on people like you Paul. Your kind fits right in there with the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church's thinking and the way it deals with these sensitive issues under the banner of Truth and God's will.

    Did it ever occur to you God's purification may include some media folks? Many journalists come from all kinds of faiths, some none at all but many are Christians and some are even practicing Roman Catholics. Especially the practicing Roman Catholic ones, are not happy the way the Catholic Church and Catholics have handled all these scandals.

    Where in the world do you think all these criminal charges that are laid by the police against certain clergy come from?

    They come from years and sometimes decades of INVESTIGATIONS.

    While folks like you Paul sit in your comfortable pew they are many others like the journalists that are doing their jobs by asking questions and searching for facts.

    While the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church chose to see no evil, hear no evil, talk no evil, therefore, a little or no crimes have ever been reported by them because it is far better to have these victims of abuse to believe they themselves are hurting the poor Catholic Church by their actions.

    There is nothing like tearing apart a victim of abuse on the witness stand with the insinuations from the priest's/clergy's lawyer. The judge doesn't see or hear what manipulations that occur from these clergy's lawyer(s). Many charges are dropped against the priests because the victims emotional state cannot continue with the heavy invasive questionings and re-questionings.

    I'm not surprise what the clergy's lawyer does, she or he may have got their orders to do whatever they have to do to get the good Father off.

    After all, it takes a lot a money for a man to become a priest. The Church has a big financial investment in these naughty(criminal)priests.

    Thank God...there are people who are working hard for justice. Numerous reporters, police are digging for facts to get at the bottom of the truth about these crimes that were perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church's Clergy. They are being stoned wall from all sides by the Church many a times.

    I'm finish talking to priests outside or inside the confessional about these scandals about certain clergy especially in my area the Pembroke Diocese.

    I found out by personal experience these priests are not to be TRUSTED, their first loyalty is to the Holy Roman Catholic Church no matter what. Many priests talk the good talk about helping victims but most of all you are lucky if they keep you or others in their prayers. Only God knows who they are.

    If a priest can lie in the confessional to me he can easily lie and continue to deceive/deny about his brother priests' criminal activities.

    Any information I have or I come across as valid I promise you Paul I will go to a journalist and let them do their job by asking questions and digging for the facts or I would go directly to the police if needed.

    Lina

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  4. Lina,
    You're totally wrong if you think I believe we need to let sodomite priests off the hook. And yes the church has obviously done a lousy job historically dealing with this problem though I think we're on the right track to deal with the problem. I don't want a sex abuser on the pulpit either and see this crisis as a badly needed purification. That said, it seems you want to label every clergy in a collar as a sex abuser and thats just sad and wrong. I know many of the priests in the Pembroke Diosese and you tarring them all as pedophiles is shameful. I served with many of them and they were nothing but good men.
    That said, you've also made numerous statements that are totally contrary to Catholic teaching such as supporting abortion, gay marriage, women clergy. The church will never change on those issues so I'd save myself the frustration and find a church that does. If it does cave to these secular values I'll be the one looking for a new church. If enough of you leave the church you perceive as being unjust, it will collapse and you will have achieved your goal. In the article you presented the women plan a day of protest not to go to church.
    Heck make it a lifetime protest and join a more likeminded church.

    Cheers
    Paul

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  5. A big THANK-YOU to you Fr. Tim Moyle and all the Pembroke Priests for Justice!

    http://www.theinquiry.ca/wordpress/2010/08/26/pemroke-priests-for-justice-truth-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-67087

    I thank GOD, many prayers are being answered.

    I am sorry to think that priests did not care enough in the Pembroke Diocese about the victims of abuse. I apologize. I will keep persevering in the power of prayer.

    Thank you to all priests of the Pembroke Diocese that our showing courage. Hope, Faith and Love.

    God bless you all and also for all the victims, abusers and all those that are hurting because of this scandal in our Diocese.

    Applause..Applause..Applause..a big standing ovation to all 'the Pembroke Priests for Justice!'

    Sincerely,

    Lina

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  6. Fr. Tim,

    I hope you checked what I wrote earlier under this headline on this blog today. I think you have a good idea what I am talking about?

    I was so happy, full of joy! Thanking God over and over!

    I PRAY for all of us and all those involved!

    Sincerely,

    in God's love!
    Lina

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  7. "The church will never change on those issues so I'd save myself the frustration and find a church that does."

    Paul, if you haven't learned anything else in your life, have you not learned, "never say never?" Especially when it comes to anything for which you are not in direct control!

    The Church will change. It has no choice. It will fight that change, kicking and screaming, but in the end it will change. It might accept women as priests, and that birth control is a human right, and may even admit that it must follow secular law and accept same-sex marriages, as an increasingly large number of so-called "Catholic" countries' governments have done, or it will die. Either is change. And it might not happen in your lifetime, but it will happen.

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  8. Fr. Michael Smith26 August, 2010

    Going back to the talk by Archbishop Chaput, linked above, a few thoughts come to mind:

    If our society, or any society, abandons any notion of natural law, then we face a long-term dilemma. Without natural law, we are left with divine law and positive law. Cut off from divine law, positive law becomes either the expression of consensus or, if there is no consensus, the expression of the will of the powerful over the weak. Yet, if divine law is absolutely essential to ground positive law, then what we have is an established religion. Natural law, the reflection of the eternal law in human conscience, appears to be the only way out of this dilemma.

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  9. Fr. Michael Smith26 August, 2010

    I checked the link to "Pembroke Priests for Justice, Truth & Integrity." The email and document posted online are anonymous. There is no evidence that they were even written by a priest. Since the author presumably wanted to remain anonymous, then, if he or she is clever, the "email" was never sent as an email, because emails can be traced. It was sent to "media outlets", and yet, as of Aug. 26 at 4:40 PM EDT, Google News turns up no results.

    Strange.

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  10. Hi Tim,

    Where does one even begin critiquing Chaput's screed? He piles one baseless assertion upon another.

    In any case, I will point to just one big fat groaner in the middle of his rant:

    "If human rights do not come from God, then they devolve to the arbitrary conventions of men and women. The state exists to defend the rights of man and to promote his flourishing. The state can never be the source of those rights. When the state arrogates to itself that power, even a democracy can become totalitarian."

    Any educated person can tell you that the Church’s initial response to the "Declaration of the Rights of Man" at the end of the French revolution was outright rejection.

    In Mirari Vos (1832) Pope Gregory XVI saw freedom of opinion and the separation of Church and State as ‘crazed
    absurdity’. Sound familiar?

    I am not suggesting for a moment that all secular states at all times have been perfect exemplars of human rights, however, Chaput is certainly in no position to claim that God or the Vicar of Christ have been constant champions for human rights either.

    Honestly Tim, I am shocked that you would want to work in the shadow of a man like Chaput. Chaput wants to roll back the clock and restore the Church's temporal power. If you need any reminder of what a mistake that was the last time that it happened, just think about how well that little "Spanish Inquisition" thing worked out for you guys. If I am not mistaken, you guys are still scrambling on the PR front for that one.

    Chaput's screed is laughable and your desire to "harness yourself" to this power-mad prelate debases you.

    Good grief. If I said prayers - you would be in them.

    Keep well.

    Cheers...Martin

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  11. Actually Martin,
    Chaput is well aware of the dangers of a theocracy and that is not what he advocates. His book "Render unto Caesar" is a great read.
    Cristina

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  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  13. Martin: I join in the recommendation of Chaput's book. I read it this summer and found it engaging, which is something of a change from many a Bishop's literary efforts. It's an easy read because it's really a collection of essays, weaving together a web of an argument that is hard to refute. I'd really appreciate your thoughts. If you would want to post any offering in response to any particular chapter, I'd post it on the front page for others to comment on. Since both Cristina and I have read the book, we can offer an engaging foil for you if that be your wish. It would be both fun and enlightening. You have made me think long and hard about what I believe and what I think I 'know'. You're helping to make me a better person and priest as a result - something you were very good at lo those many years ago in London.

    As with Lady Janus and others, I owe you a great debt of thanks. Your participation has made this whole exercise better than I dared hope for when I started this blog a year ago.

    I'm in Toronto this week. If you're interested, send me an email and perhaps we can arrange for a lunch.

    Tim

    ReplyDelete
  14. "Anonymous Paul said...
    Lina,
    You're totally wrong if you think I believe we need to let sodomite priests off the hook. And yes the church has obviously done a lousy job historically dealing with this problem though I think we're on the right track to deal with the problem. I don't want a sex abuser on the pulpit either and see this crisis as a badly needed purification. That said, it seems you want to label every clergy in a collar as a sex abuser and thats just sad and wrong. I know many of the priests in the Pembroke Diosese and you tarring them all as pedophiles is shameful. I served with many of them and they were nothing but good men.
    That said, you've also made numerous statements that are totally contrary to Catholic teaching such as supporting abortion, gay marriage, women clergy. The church will never change on those issues so I'd save myself the frustration and find a church that does. If it does cave to these secular values I'll be the one looking for a new church. If enough of you leave the church you perceive as being unjust, it will collapse and you will have achieved your goal. In the article you presented the women plan a day of protest not to go to church.
    Heck make it a lifetime protest and join a more likeminded church.

    Cheers
    Paul "

    That is some barn yard honey post you posted here to me Paul.

    Paul....fuddle duddle you!

    If you do not understand those two words ask Fr. Tim to explain them to you. I'm sure he knows the history of these words!

    Lina

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  15. And may God bless you Lina.

    Cheers
    Paul

    ReplyDelete
  16. Lina you are right on the money for not trusting priests especially those with Irish name. Ever notice that most of the pedophiles and child molesters have Irish names.

    ReplyDelete
  17. So, the anonymous racist troll on another thread actually has a name...Cathy...

    ReplyDelete
  18. I agree wholeheartedly that the basis of the sanctity of life cannot be successfully argued from a purely humanistic viewpoint. The sacredness of human life is based on what God has said in Holy Scripture. This is the only sound basis for believing in and defending human life.

    I also agree wholeheartedly basic human rights do not originate from government or rulers, but are God-given.

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  19. Lina,

    Trusting priests any more than anyone else is contrary to the Bible. The reason is they are no different than other men. They have the same desires and fallen nature; yet they have been unbiblically entrusted with hearing the secret confessions of parishioners. If you study the New Testament with an open mind, you may come to the conclusion there are no priests authorized to offer sacrifices and hear confessions after Christ came. Jesus is our priest who made a complete atonement for sin (Paul's epistle to the Hebrews) and the only one we are to confess our innermost sins and failings to. See Matthew 11:27-28.

    Wayne

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  20. As logical as this article sounds, he is beating a dead horse because it is coming from inside the RCC.

    Defending the faith of the RCC is not even on the radar as far as the public is concerned. The general public could care less what doctrines the RCC believes or preaches because most people are not interested. What they see are the reports in the media of widespread sexual abuse coming to light in different countries such as today's report out of Belgium.

    If one wishes to have God's truth, even if only a relatively few are believing it, it would be better to disassociate oneself from the RCC and the baggage it is carrying, including, in the opinion of many Bible believers, a binful of false doctrines, and turn to Jesus as the only Saviour and the God of the Bible as the source of truth as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

    The truth of Scripture has not been embraced by the hundreds of millions of people in the various religions of the world. If one believes in a sovereign God and what the Bible teaches, then one must conclude that God has predestined or foreordained a relatively small part of the world's population to be the elect (true church). As Jesus said the broad way leads to destruction and the narrow way leads to eternal life and few there be that find it. Don't expect to find the truth in a huge organization. That is not what Jesus said would happen.

    ReplyDelete

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