09 February, 2011

Salvation - a User's Manual and FAQ's

I like the way that Michael uses everyday imagery and events to help explain the Christian message. Well done Michael!

P.S.  What's up with your photo? I thought you were supposed to wait for the flamé to extinguish before eating!

Freedom Through Truth: Salvation - a User's Manual and FAQ's

40 comments:

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  3. Hi Wayne

    You keep flinging mud but 90% of it is shear propaganda. You need to stop reading Jack Chick comics and read some real history. Your "facts" are simply not true or are gross exaggerations. I could spend a day debunking most of the "facts" you posted above but I have neither the time nor the desire to do so since it would only be followed up with a new batch of accusations. We Catholics acknowledge the sins of the past and we will no doubt commit sins in the future. We are a church filled with sinful people because we live in a sinful world.
    But dare I say, if you ever took a critical look at the short history of Protestantism without your protestant glasses on, you'd see your fair share of executed heretics, burning witches and persecuted fellow Christians, not just Catholics. Deceptive money hungry pastors, sex abusers and everything in between. Following your logic above, shouldn't you reject Protestantism as well since surely a church following Christ couldn't possibly commit such acts. It can't be the True Church either can it?

    I think most of your misconceptions about Catholicism are addressed here. Its a long read but so is the list of accusations. Much of your thinking seems to be in lock step with Jack Chick so I think this will certainly address most of those points above.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts.asp

    Bye for now.
    Paul

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  5. "It really got going when the Emperor of the Roman Empire, Constantine, allegedly became a christian and legalized christianity in the Roman Empire about 300 A.D."

    Wayne, I'll have to dig out my textbooks and check, but it seems to me that you might have the order of events backwards. My memory tells me that Constantine only converted finally to Christianity on his deathbed. And this was not a religious move, but a political one, in order to preserve the unity of his empire and not for any great personal religious conviction. But, previous to that, he stopped the persecution of Christians, along with all other religions. He mandated religious toleration (as opposed to "tolerance," and the difference between those two words is very, very important) throughout his empire...something the citizens of the world today would do well to emulate, don't you think?

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  6. "A multi-million dollar campaign was run against Jack Chick publishing business to try to discredit his work. But he can document his sources."

    Documentation and sourcing is not the issue with Chick. His spin doctoring and smear tactics are the issue. He is the patron saint of Westboro Baptist Church. Or he would be, if they had a saint.

    "However Jack Chick is not the only person that believes these things."

    But he's the originator of all the hate stemming from his fan club. And that makes a difference.

    Wayne, honey, if you are a fan, a follower, or a proponent of Jack Chick and his phobic pathologies, you just lost me as a comment partner.

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  7. Father Tim:

    Re the picture:
    It is one of the following:
    1) Mexican Food here in Arizona
    2) Photoshop of a picture of me sneezing
    or
    3) An exercise in trust, learning to eat fire, done in a retreat on native land in Northern Ontario, where the retreat was led by a former circus clown.

    Clue. The most improbable of the above is the correct answer.

    Re the comments above:
    I'm with Lady Janus. Wayne thinks that Paul, you and I have swallowed the Catholic Kool Aid, and I guess Lady Janus, you are guilty by association, sorta. Sorry, dear Lady.

    I would prefer to drink Catholic Kool Aid than Jack Chick venom any day, if those are my two choices.

    Wayne does not seem to be interested in the truth because it would make him have to come back home to the Catholic Church, which is an imponderable thing for him. However, the prayers of the faithful are working to make the pull of the vortex stronger every day.

    Can you hear the sucking sound, Wayne? Ask not for whom the vortex sucks, it sucks for thee, dear friend.

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  10. Paul,

    Wikipedia has some information on the Inquisitions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#Medieval_Inquisition

    And the Spanish Inquistion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

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  11. Paul,

    The famous Foxe's Book of Martyr is online at:

    http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

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  16. STG: Glad to accommodate you. The comments have been removed. Thanks for letting me know as I very much appreciate your good spirit!

    Fr. Tim

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  17. Hi Wayne

    Please stop posting links about the Inquisition. I'm well aware of it as is the Church. Nobody is denying it happened. You say I need to read some "non biased" sources about it and I suggest you do the same. The BBC did a comprehensive investigation of the Inquisition and air a documentary about it called "Myths of the Spanish Inquisition". Although it was still brutal, it was not near as brutal and pervasive as Protestant legend makes it out to be. You surely can't accuse the BBC of being in the pocket for Rome.

    We have some skeletons in our closet as do the Protestants. I'd rather not create a meter long posting on Tim's page so I'll post a link that's a reality check on the historical Protestant church and the thoughts and actions of its founders. It wasn't as free thinking and noble as one might think.
    You mentioned Catholics burning witches and I thought you'd find this statistic a bit unsettling.
    "In Britain 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany the figure was 100,000 . . . If the Inquisition establishes the falsity of Catholicism, the witch trials establish the falsity of Protestantism."

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm#VI.%20DEATH%20AND%20TORTURE%20FOR%20CATHOLICS%20AND%20PROTESTANT

    I have no desire to get into a mud slinging competition but I think a reality check is in order. Much of your case against Catholicism is based on its bad behaviour, ironically it was shared by Protestants in that time period. If Jack Chick were Catholic, he'd have lots of material for making comic books although we'd prefer he didn't.

    Should the fact that Judas was among the 12 discredit the apostles and the church that was born of their ministry? The church has had bad and evil people in it since its first days. That is not going to change anytime soon.

    Cheers
    Paul

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  19. Hi Wayne

    I don't think the article tries to say it was worst or better (nor am I) with the early Protestants, its just saying the same tyranny they site of the inquisition existed in the early Protestant Churches and Protestant countries. If murder in Gods name is a sign of a false religion, does it really matter if it was 40,000 people or 4 billion? Many if not most protestants haven't a clue of this dark chapter in their church history. They quickly smack a Catholic with the inquisitions ignorant of the fact the same persecutions happened in their own history.
    Not excusing the inquisitions by any means but these were times where stealing a loaf of bread could amount to some pretty extreme justice. Ironically, its been found that criminals would commit an act of heresy in Spain to avoid the civil court in favour of the courts of the inquisition since they were seen as more just.
    Regarding permission to attend a Protestant Church, I can't speak to that because I've never heard of that in my 40 years but I do believe that could have been the case at that time. That said I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we think protestants are or never were cautioned on attending Catholic events or getting involved with Catholic people. Heck the town where my former Lutheran wife comes from, the Catholics lived on one side of the river and the Protestants on the other.

    Cheers
    Paul

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  21. "That's what you have been told by those who are biased..."

    No. That's what I KNOW from having seen samples of the sewage he spews. Do NOT try to tell me that the offal he offers is in any way related to FACTS!

    "Thank you for telling us about the Westboro Baptist Church."

    Aw, shit...what've I done...? I'm SORRY, Tim! I had no idea it wasn't already common knowledge...

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  22. "I have also heard his conversion was questionable as he had a certain person or persons murdered after his alleged conversion."

    He had his wife and eldest son killed, reportedly because he found out they were having a sexual fling behind his back (although it could just as well have been for the purpose of solidifying his power and warning anyone with ambitions to be Emperor), but that was well BEFORE his conversion! Those executions, by the way, were swiftly followed by universal laws prohibiting adultery. Before then, there were no such laws.

    Before then, he was actually head of the Christian church, although he was NOT a Christian. He once offered to become a Christian, if they made him bishop of Rome. They declined, and so did he.

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  25. Curious Comment Thread, Father Tim.

    I wrote a piece using a metaphor for the Bible to express some thoughts for a total of 565 words. Probably 200 people saw what I wrote, most of them linked from your site here.

    Over here, that generated 24 comments before this one, 15 of which were the anti-Catholic ramblings of Jack Chick supporter, Brother Wayne. In fact, he generated 3671 words for an average of 245 per comment. Any 2 of his comments almost equal my original piece.

    Paul obviously read at least some of what Wayne wrote, since he responded quite ably. Lady Janus also must have read some of it, since she also had relevant comments to make.

    I confess that I read about 36 of the 3671 words he wrote, since I now only look for key words in Wayne's comments. Most are key words for ignoring the comment. The odd key word gets my attention.

    If Wayne really believes the stuff he is spouting, he should put it somewhere where somebody is going to read it. 3671 is a lot of words, and this drive by shooting that he is doing is not getting much of an audience.

    Just a thought!!

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  26. Wayne:

    I realise in retrospect that the vortex, sucking comment was a little too subtle.

    When I said "ask not for whom" yadda yadda yadda, I was paraphrasing John Donne from what has come to be known separately from its original context, as "For Whom the Bell Tolls".

    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself.
    Each is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thine own
    Or of thine friend's were.
    Each man's death diminishes me,
    For I am involved in mankind.
    Therefore, send not to know
    For whom the bell tolls,
    It tolls for thee.

    Donne was an Anglican priest in the 1600's among other things.

    My use of vortex and sucking was also pretty subtle. Vortex is the name Michael Voris, a Catholic who is often critical in videos of things going on in the Catholic Church, uses for his video work - The Vortex. He chooses to criticize what he sees as wrong from the inside, because above all he loves Jesus, and believes in the Catholic vision of Christianity.

    I see that in your case, there are competing vortices. There is the Catholic Church pulling you home, and the Reform Church, confusing your heart with Jack Chick, Loraine Boettner and others.

    By the way, the Donne poem is significant on its own. Again to paraphrase, though one man's death is a part of each of us, one man's criticism of other men/women and their beliefs becomes a part of each of us as well, and distorts the gift of free will that we have each been given It forms an attempt to coerce others to believe what the critic believes.

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  28. Hi Michael

    When you said Vortex, Voris was the first thing that came to my mind. I watch his commentary often and have listened to numerous audio lessons they've given on the church. Sadly, I've learned a lot more listening to him in a year about the church than 12 years of Catholic education.

    Cheers
    Paul

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  31. STG: Not Michael, Paul or I put our 'blind trust' in anyone or anything on earth.

    Look, we've said over and over that we acknowledge the sinfulness of the Church over the ages and into today. You seem to overlook the fact that your church (and every Church) is in the same boat. Protestants are no better than Catholics. It goes the same the other way too.

    We are all sinners. To be an authentic Christian is to discern the elements of grace that lie amidst the refuse of our sin, and then to follow the path such grace reveals. A denomination is little more than the accumulated experiences and wisdom of search for, and following the path Christ calls us to.

    You say we've killed more people. Sure! Absolutely! We've been at this for 2000. Your clan are mere children compared to us. Believe me when I say that if you were to the mathematical calculations, you would see that Protestants have proven the old adage that the 'apple doesn't fall far from the tree'.

    You say we assisted Nazis. Probably true. We assisted Jews, Italians, Spaniards, Poles.... I don't doubt that there were some who shared the German cause as a bulwark against Communist Russia who helped to spirit them away to South America. As I said, any church is a 'melange' of grace and sin.

    You may question our commitments and beliefs. Please don't insult us as if we were ignorant children unable to keep ourselves safe from the deceptions of the evil one.

    I don't believe that anyone here has said anything comparable of you.

    Fr. Tim

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  33. Wayne:

    Your hatred of all things Catholic has tainted your conscience. I am sorry that your nun teacher in 1962 hurt your feelings, but you need to get over it, and get on with your life.

    You will be held to account for your persecution of members of the Body of Christ.

    http://freethroughtruth.blogspot.com/2011/02/highways-to-heaven.html

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  34. STG: You wrote: "These crimes against humanity, while some may have been committed by Prots who claimed to be christians, I would doubt they were if they were doing such deeds. What some Prots may have done pales in significance."

    and then

    "Of course we are all sinners. That is not the point and is a major distraction. The six million Jews murdered in the gas chambers were sinners as were the Nazi war criminals who were sending them there and gassing them. The fact we are all sinners is not the point. When people claim to be the people of God, there must be a different attitude about such things. We cannot drink of the cup of devils and the cup of God."

    My response: Matthew 7:1

    Come to understand the meaning and wisdom of that passage and maybe you'll come to appreciate the ignorance, bigotry and insult of your comment.

    YOU claim that the simple fact that as a Roman Catholic I am equated with Nazis (the earthly incarnation of evil,) and with the 'cup of the devil' master of evil incarnate.as well (as opposed to your little shot glasses of grape juice that you think of as a eucharist? Seriously... get over your chalice envy! Sometimes 'bigger is better'.)

    Have I or any other Catholic here condemned any other sect or denomination? We would not presume to do so. Our Church does not presume to do so. Our Catechism does not say so. No doctrine/dogma still in force presumes to say so.

    But you do. You believe that it is proper to condemn an entire Christian denomination because they don't believe the same way you do. Why? Upon what ground (since we are all sinners as we agree) can you make such an judgment? Because you have not killed. Congratulations! BIG F*CKING DEAL!! I haven't either, but evidently according to you I am evil incarnate; I commune with the devil; and am condemned to hell by the offenses of others committed centuries ago.

    Of course if I come to believe as you, then I can join you in paradise? Right?

    Unbelievable! And you condemn Catholics for being biased, bigoted and closed minded?

    How you can maintain an ego sufficient to hold up such contradiction from what I believe to be the teaching of Christ is beyond my comprehension. You are far more doctrinaire and dogmatic than Catholics were prior to the reformation!

    Fr. Tim

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  35. Tim,

    "YOU claim that the simple fact that as a Roman Catholic I am equated with Nazis (the earthly incarnation of evil,) and with the 'cup of the devil' master of evil incarnate....I commune with the devil; and am condemned to hell by the offenses of others committed centuries ago."
    ___________________________

    That is not what I said and you know it.

    I said "When people claim to be the people of God, there must be a different attitude about such things (inquistions, persecutions, killings). We cannot drink of the cup of devils and the cup of God."

    Meaning we cannot have an attitude of defending, diminishing, or denying the evil things done in history against countless people and still claim to be serving God.

    However, I think it is time to adjourn from this conversation because by the language you are using, you are becoming unreasonable. No point in arguing. If we can't discuss this civilly, we are not doing any good.

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  36. MBrandon,

    Michael,
    "You will be held to account for your persecution of members of the Body of Christ.

    http://freethroughtruth.blogspot.com/2011/02/highways-to-heaven.html"

    I have not persecuted anybody. You accuse me of evil. My pointing out error, false doctrine, and pointing out the real persecution done in history through the Inquistions, etc. against those who disagreed with the RCC, is not persecution.

    Would you say those who were physically abused or killed in the Inquistions and other massacres, for not agreeing with Rome, were the real victims of persecution?

    I have nothing against RCs. If I didn't care for them, I would not bother trying to show them the errors of Romanism and point them to Christ as the only Saviour. I would not even be here commenting. But the Bible teaches christians to do what we can to help to reconcile men/women to God.

    "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." James 5:20

    Sadly, it seems you would rather be left in your errors. If someone stubbornly resists considering what the Holy Scriptures say and clings to their errors, there is nothing much I can do for them, except pray.

    But if God is somehow speaking to you through His Word, consider what the Psalmist said:

    "To-day if ye will hear his voice,

    Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

    Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

    Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest."
    Psalm 95 vs 7b - 11.

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  37. Wayne:

    Any idiot can and some do quote the Bible. Heck, I do too. But, it takes a special gift for self-aggrandizement and self righteousness to think you have all the answers.

    Though it was cute at first to see you angle scripture to your own ends, ignoring the History of the early Church, because it was not all purely biblical, at least in your own mind.

    But, when you started to bring in Boettner to justify your claims, you slipped a notch. Recently, you have tried it with Jack Chick.

    Chick's claim to fame as a Catholic basher was that he used a former Jesuit priest and secret Bishop to bolster his claims against the Catholic Church. Only problem was that this so called Catholic Bishop was married with two children in a different part of the world than where he was apparently exercising his bishop's duties. Oh, and besides that the Jesuits have no knowledge of him, and he doesn't know enough Catholic dogma to be a Catholic let alone the other roles he fantasized for himself.

    But, you kind of topped it off the other day by bringing in noted Catholic hater, conspiracy theorist, and self acknowledged expert on the Catholic Church, Avro Manhattan. Unfortunately Manhattan died in 1990, so he could not blame the Catholics for Global Warming. Maybe you could take that up.

    Somehow, you have rationalized that you have a duty given you by the hand of God to bring to the Catholic Church the wisdom of their errors, their erroneous interpretation of scripture, or their abandonment of scripture, not sure which one you are on to now.

    St. Paul thought he was wise too, when he persecuted the early Church. He got knocked off his high horse, and saw the light. His spiritual arrogance had led to the deaths of many before his conversion.

    My hope is that you will not have destroyed the delicate faith of some of God's little children by your fatuous ramblings.

    I have not read one word that you have written that would interest me at all in any faith that you propose. When people quote me liars with reckless abandon, and put their own spin on sacred scriptures, I tend to dismiss them outright, which is why I tend to only read the odd word of your comments.

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  38. "I think it is time to adjourn from this conversation because by the language you are using, you are becoming unreasonable."

    Excuse me, Wayne...you slam the beliefs of others wholesale, and when they finally get tired of your bullshit and respond, you want to quit? And then you accuse Tim of being "uncivil?"

    Final straw, dude. I've had it with you. Just better be careful your idol, Chick, doesn't use you for target practise. He's been known to turn on his supporters, y'know...

    Oh, and one final thing...if you want to go around pointing fingers at members of antisemetic groups, you'd better be pointing them at yourself. Especially if you're Canadian. Because this country refused to allow Jewish refugees during the Holocaust. And, by inference and association, YOU were part of it!

    I'm done with you.

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  39. Tim,

    I apologize for harsh comments I made to you. I apologize if I said something to the effect you were evil incarnate. I did not mean to say anything like that. And I apologize for saying you were being uncivil. I can understand your reaction if I came across that way. I struggle with an arrogant, self-righteous attitude at times (or often). I apologize for offending yourself and anybody else on here.

    Even though my beliefs on theology are different than RCs, I hope we can agree to disagree and live together peacefully. Regards.

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  40. Tim,

    Could you remove all of my postings under this section. For some reason I don't see a wastebasket. Thank you. I apologize for any comments that may have be offensive to some people.

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